Curse

mrmango · Oct 31, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Technobabble > BHA for most PVE. If a casting boss really gives you trouble, then BHA is important, but there aren't many situations were that'd be the case.

Moonlit Azure · Oct 31, 2008, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Well Technobabble has a 10 second recharge and a max 5 second daze.

Amy Awien · Oct 31, 2008, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Are you...bad? They are among them, spears apply good steady pressure and damage while dowing the same thing BHA can do, psearchuckers ftw, you cant neglect this.

Are you ... foolish? Spears are only good for auto-attacking damage, you can't interrupt with a spear (and auto-attack damage isn't particularly hot in HM). If c-spacing with a spear chucker is your thing, you have the wrong primary profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

... wait for your BHA to recharge ...

That explains it....

Super Igor · Oct 31, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Are you ... foolish? Spears are only good for auto-attacking damage, you can't interrupt with a spear (and auto-attack damage isn't particularly hot in HM). If c-spacing with a spear chucker is your thing, you have the wrong primary profession.

Here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

33% IAS + 12 points in spear = HIGH DPS

Addreniline builds fast and Spear attacks that cost energy are effected by Expertise. Plus the extra armor and health that comes with holding a shield.

Rangers and Spears are a solid combo

Read the above quote carefully, it should hopefully explain it all for you.

Moonlit Azure · Nov 01, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Ok good dps on a ranger.

Wanna cookie for totally disregarding what your class is for?

Amy Awien · Nov 01, 2008, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Super Igor, you should read up a bit on armour and damage math, Super Igor. Weapon base damage, whether from spear or bow - or even with IAS - is not significant in hard mode, where even the 'squishies' have > 80~90 AL (3*CL). The difference between bow and spear is even less significant.

But while not giving significant advantage in damage, carrying a spear is detrimental to your ability to interrupt. Your options are exhausted with Disrupting Throw - on a 10 second recharge - as targeted interrupt and the elite Stunning Strike, to daze casters, for random interrupts.

Armour ignoring (bonus) damage is not affected by higher AL, but there /P secondary does not have anything to add to a ranger primary, the conjures from /E would be a better addition if you're looking to do damage with your ranger.

Bow :: 15-28 / 2 sec (.5 atck/sec) +15% + 20% => 29.7 x .5 = [email protected] => [email protected]

Spear :: 17-24 / 1,5 sec (.67 atck/sec) +15% + 20% => 28.3 x .67 = [email protected] => [email protected]

Bow + Conjure @ 10 :: 15-28 / 2 sec (.5 atck/sec) +15% + 20% => (29.7 + 15) x .5 = [email protected] => [email protected]

Lourens · Nov 01, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

You can interupt with a spear and just combine conjure with a spear huh ? and stunning thingie isnt easely avoidable and if you want to inflict daze be real quick and land a concusive shot or whatever its called o and Thunder Clap is far better then BHA cause its AoE combined with barrage vs a group of casters they wouldnt stand a chance

Super Igor · Nov 01, 2008, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Super Igor, you should read up a bit on armour and damage math, Super Igor. Weapon base damage, whether from spear or bow - or even with IAS - is not significant in hard mode, where even the 'squishies' have > 80~90 AL (3*CL). The difference between bow and spear is even less significant.

lolwut, in any way spear dps would be higher that bow dps besides it would still be much better to dazebot with a spear than with a bow.

Quote:

But while not giving significant advantage in damage, carrying a spear is detrimental to your ability to interrupt. Your options are exhausted with Disrupting Throw - on a 10 second recharge - as targeted interrupt and the elite Stunning Strike, to daze casters, for random interrupts.

So since when BHA and D-Shot are good synergies, interrupt from daze goes first so 20 sec disable wont trigger. Yeah, spearchuckers might not have as much interrupting power but they apply daze more easily and deal more dps.

Quote:

Bow :: 15-28 / 2 sec (.5 atck/sec) +15% + 20% => 29.7 x .5 = [email protected] => [email protected]

Spear :: 17-24 / 1,5 sec (.67 atck/sec) +15% + 20% => 28.3 x .67 = [email protected] => [email protected]

That has said it all, spear dps > bow dps. yeah sure, you can match spear dps using a conjure but that makes you waste your secondary profession and ruins focus of your build which makes it inferior, conjure BHA anyone? lolwut. Oh btw, you forgot to add pet dps to your maths, and that both would have a constant IAS from never rampage alone.

jackerduud · Nov 01, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

You can interupt with a spear and just combine conjure with a spear huh ? and stunning thingie isnt easely avoidable and if you want to inflict daze be real quick and land a concusive shot or whatever its called o and Thunder Clap is far better then BHA cause its AoE combined with barrage vs a group of casters they wouldnt stand a chance

This guy has it all, R/P/E Conjure Spear Ranger and R/E ThunderClap Barrage with 2 elites!

On topic, i haven't tried a Spear Ranger, and i personally gave up on Daze since Discord heros kill the bosses in about 10-15 sec, not to mention the normal mobs that drop on 3. IF i would have to go Interrupts, I'd stick with BHA+Epidemic, since it has proven to be effective in the past.

Tyla · Nov 01, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Ok good dps on a ranger.

Wanna cookie for totally disregarding what your class is for?

Experts' Dexterity. :>

Amy Awien · Nov 01, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

No cookie for you, taking Experts Dexterity isn't (completely) "disregarding what your class is for".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

So since when BHA and D-Shot are good synergies, interrupt from daze goes first so 20 sec disable wont trigger.

The folly, off course not, use BHA on casters, then hit them as often as possible (btw, with daze Needling works similar like an interrupt). You'd use D-Shot on noncasters or where daze isn't usefull. But at least you aren't waiting for BHA to recharge anymore, that's progress, I suppose

Quote:

Yeah, spearchuckers might not have as much interrupting power but they apply daze more easily and deal more dps.

Negative on both accounts
1) you don't need to charge up adrenaline to be able to use BHA.
2) Standard conjure R/E outdamages R/P spearchucker

Quote:

That has said it all, spear dps > bow dps. yeah sure, you can match spear dps using a conjure but that makes you waste your secondary profession and ruins focus of your build which makes it inferior, conjure BHA anyone?

R/E > R/P, conjure on the bow doesn't just match spear damage, it is superior. Since you conveniently left it out, I'll reprint it:

Spear :: [email protected] => [email protected]
Bow + Conjure :: [email protected] => [email protected]

Interesting how you find that /E is a waste of secondary and /P is not? In both cases you use the secondary, obviously, but where the /E doesn't restrict you in the skills you can bring, /P with a spear severely limits you functionality. Not only is /P more limiting your functionality, it doesn't add as much damage as /E.

Quote:

Oh btw, you forgot to add pet dps to your maths, and that both would have a constant IAS from never rampage alone.

Huh? Are you bringing a hero-battle build on your ranger into HM? With daze and all? You can only bring 8 skills and 2 are needed just to bring the pet, leaving little room for utility. If you do decide to bring one it is easier to increase bow damage then a spear.
Btw, your pet's damage doesn't doesn't depend on you using a bow or spear.

Lourens · Nov 01, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackerduud

This guy has it all, R/P/E Conjure Spear Ranger and R/E ThunderClap Barrage with 2 elites!

On topic, i haven't tried a Spear Ranger, and i personally gave up on Daze since Discord heros kill the bosses in about 10-15 sec, not to mention the normal mobs that drop on 3. IF i would have to go Interrupts, I'd stick with BHA+Epidemic, since it has proven to be effective in the past.

ever heard of a team of 2 ppl ?

Super Igor · Nov 01, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The folly, off course not, use BHA on casters, then hit them as often as possible (btw, with daze Needling works similar like an interrupt). You'd use D-Shot on noncasters or where daze isn't usefull. But at least you aren't waiting for BHA to recharge anymore, that's progress, I suppose

Needling shot sucks without any type of damage buff, beh, it just sucks. Using it to kill of foes under 50% is like trying to do that with flare but worse.
Also, interrupts in general arent that usefull in pve and HM, first of all skill recharge faster and then, things die too fast for srs shutdown to be needed, yeah you might find shutting down an ele or a healer usefull but dedicating the whole bar to it is pointless imo, it must be doing something else, like dealing damage or something.

Quote:

you don't need to charge up adrenaline to be able to use BHA.

First, you arent waiting for 15 seconds for bha to recharge and deal bonus damage. Second, you deal fairly nice bonus damage. Third, it would take you a pair of seconds to fill up with IAS and spear of fury. Fourth, you cannot lolmiss with a spear like you can with omzhugearc bha.

Quote:

Standard conjure R/E outdamages R/P spearchucker

Conjure BHA lolwut?

And no, spearchucker, with IAS and it's pet would outdamage R/E BHA.

Also it outdamages the OP's build.

Quote:

R/E > R/P, conjure on the bow doesn't just match spear damage, it is superior. Since you conveniently left it out, I'll reprint it:

Yea but bow auto-attacks are inferior to those ofspears besides spears have better accuracy. I mean, you chuck a conjure on a bha bar, cmon, stop inventing stuff for argument's sake. Besides, spear with ias and a pet, outdamages R/E conjure + it has better surviveability and armor from it's shield + beter daze-bot.

Quote:

Interesting how you find that /E is a waste of secondary and /P is not? In both cases you use the secondary, obviously, but where the /E doesn't restrict you in the skills you can bring, /P with a spear severely limits you functionality. Not only is /P more limiting your functionality, it doesn't add as much damage as /E.

Well, R/P spearchucker is a solid combo, proven by many. And whats conjure BHA?

Quote:

Huh? Are you bringing a hero-battle build on your ranger into HM? With daze and all? You can only bring 8 skills and 2 are needed just to bring the pet, leaving little room for utility. If you do decide to bring one it is easier to increase bow damage then a spear.
Btw, your pet's damage doesn't doesn't depend on you using a bow or spear.

R/E has utlity, sure. And how is it easier? You bring a pet because it fuels your aweasome IAS, never rampage alone, which greatly adds to your dps without any silly enchies, you also have a pet who synergises well with daze, adds pressure and soaks aggro. For your spear attacks you need three skills: barbed spear, spear of fury and stunning strike, that makes 6 skills in total. Want utlity, take it.

Moonlit Azure · Nov 01, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Experts' Dexterity. :>

I guess, but most expert's dexterity people die in the first 10 seconds of fighting olol.

Luminarus · Nov 01, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Huh? Are you bringing a hero-battle build on your ranger into HM? With daze and all? You can only bring 8 skills and 2 are needed just to bring the pet, leaving little room for utility. If you do decide to bring one it is easier to increase bow damage then a spear.
Btw, your pet's damage doesn't doesn't depend on you using a bow or spear.

Since we are looking at the damage of spear vs bow. We will assume for arguments sake that both are using daze, hence the elites are taken (BHA & Stunning). So that bow damage is better then spear damage the BHA must have conjure. That already means a 3 attribute split. If you want to bring a pet either a) Sacrifice expertise, b) dazed duration or c) conjure damage. Lets start out with example bars.

R/E: 10+1 marks, 11+1+1 exp 10 element. I think thats pretty fair, trying to get as much as possible out of each line.

BHA|Distracting Shot|Needling (Since you suggested it)|Conjure XX| + 4 optionals.

R/P
12 Spearmaster
10+1+1 Beastmastery
8+1 Exp (Again fair attributes since need less exp due to spear attacks being mostly adrenaline.

Stunning Strike|Never Rampage Alone|Charm|Comfort|

Both bars have the same number of skills, which has more dps and more shutdown? The paragon is extremely the obvious choice, take notice of the + damage on the spear attack. The R/E has 3 pve skills + 1 open slot, the R/P 2 pve + 2 open slots. The R/P can have deep wound whilst the R/E cannot. The R/P can afford more expensive pve skills, the R/E cannot. The R/P Has 8 or 18 more armor then the R/E and +30 more hp. Which is superior? The R/P has an expendable tank, the R/E doesnt. I can keep going. The R/P interupts more then twice as often (the dazed target) then the R/E. Which is better?

Just to throw out the build that I use on my pve spearchucker:
Same atts as above:

Stunning Strike|Never Rampage Alone|Spear of Fury|You Move Like A Dwarf|Merciless Spear|Scavenger's Strike|Charm Animal|Comfort Animal|

I hope this clears up the argument that R/P is bad. (Oh, and just as a side bonus, R/E wont trigger mark of pain, barbs or orders. R/P will trigger them, with mop and barbs twice.)

Super Igor · Nov 02, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Exactly, great stuff dude, hope it would clear things up for the R/P hating guy. :P

Amy Awien · Nov 02, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

It's not hate but realism in recognizing the limits of a R/P spear chucker. Though the higher attack rate looks nice, against the harder targets you'll find in HM the base damage of spear as well as bow are lacking.

R/P sacrifices virtually all functionality of bow attack skills for a minor increase in (only) the base weapon damage. But then even in damage the spear isn't particularly stronger since the bow gives access to bonus damage added by the Conjures, skills like Read the Wind and various bow attacks, which usually add more +damage then spear attacks.

You are using a specific, weak bow build as example to make points, while there are many better options available. Despite the adrenal elite your spear ranger uses more energy to apply daze then a bow ranger with BHA would.

If you want to exploit daze you can use a bow plus pet as well as a spear plus pet and you are not limited to conjures when the attribute spread makes them unattractive.
Preparations like Read the Wind or Expert Focus can easily bring bow damage on par with the spear and have additional benefits. Bow attacks generally add more +damage then spear attacks and a skill like, for example, Sloth Hunter's Shot will always hit for the full bonus (+50) on a dazed caster.

Daze is good and a caster will have a hard time getting anything between the hits, it only has effect against casters. R/P has only one interrupt skill on a 10 sec recharge, your R/P has focussed so much on applying and using Daze (5 skills!) that it has become a whole lot less effective against non casters then a regular (beastmaster) ranger. The bow ranger is still better at disrupting then the R/P can be.

Super Igor · Nov 02, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Amy, you are now arguing for the sake of arguing, you have been given more than enough evidence of why that particular R/P spearchucker is better than BHA when you want to shutdown casters, neglecting this evidence with rage or random comparisons would only make people dislike you checking you out from the list of people worth listening to and cheking you in the list of terrible players not worth respecting at all so read this carefuly:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Since we are looking at the damage of spear vs bow. We will assume for arguments sake that both are using daze, hence the elites are taken (BHA & Stunning). So that bow damage is better then spear damage the BHA must have conjure. That already means a 3 attribute split. If you want to bring a pet either a) Sacrifice expertise, b) dazed duration or c) conjure damage. Lets start out with example bars.

R/E: 10+1 marks, 11+1+1 exp 10 element. I think thats pretty fair, trying to get as much as possible out of each line.

BHA|Distracting Shot|Needling (Since you suggested it)|Conjure XX| + 4 optionals.

R/P
12 Spearmaster
10+1+1 Beastmastery
8+1 Exp (Again fair attributes since need less exp due to spear attacks being mostly adrenaline.

Stunning Strike|Never Rampage Alone|Charm|Comfort|

Both bars have the same number of skills, which has more dps and more shutdown? The paragon is extremely the obvious choice, take notice of the + damage on the spear attack. The R/E has 3 pve skills + 1 open slot, the R/P 2 pve + 2 open slots. The R/P can have deep wound whilst the R/E cannot. The R/P can afford more expensive pve skills, the R/E cannot. The R/P Has 8 or 18 more armor then the R/E and +30 more hp. Which is superior? The R/P has an expendable tank, the R/E doesnt. I can keep going. The R/P interupts more then twice as often (the dazed target) then the R/E. Which is better?

Just to throw out the build that I use on my pve spearchucker:
Same atts as above:

Stunning Strike|Never Rampage Alone|Spear of Fury|You Move Like A Dwarf|Merciless Spear|Scavenger's Strike|Charm Animal|Comfort Animal|

I hope this clears up the argument that R/P is bad. (Oh, and just as a side bonus, R/E wont trigger mark of pain, barbs or orders. R/P will trigger them, with mop and barbs twice.)

and this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

33% IAS + 12 points in spear = HIGH DPS

Addreniline builds fast and Spear attacks that cost energy are effected by Expertise. Plus the extra armor and health that comes with holding a shield.

Rangers and Spears are a solid combo

both quotes are highly accurate on why R/P is not only a viable but a better option that BHA. Quotes above tell you why a spearchucker R/P would deal more damage no matter how madly you would split attributes for cunjures and long casting spirits on your bha ranger and they would tell you why a spearchucker R/P is a very solid combo.

Hopefully it should prevent you from making these kinds of statements...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Despite the adrenal elite your spear ranger uses more energy to apply daze then a bow ranger with BHA would.

...and this thread from being closed.

peace

Amy Awien · Nov 02, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Amy, you are now arguing for the sake of arguing, you have been given more than enough evidence of why that particular R/P spearchucker is better than BHA when you want to shutdown casters ...

You've presented no evidence, only opinions, and speculation. If you're trying to discuss the quality of the presented arguments, I think I was the only one to present a calculation and not a speculation.

You claim the spear is better in shutdown and disruption then the bow, but you forget that the spear can offer no disruption beyond what is offered by daze, and it does not daze any better then the bow.
BHA does not require you to build up adrenaline and can be used at the start of a fight, but the spear can be run cheaper, energy wise. The daze from BHA lasts longer (which can be useful in HM where mobs have conditions expire faster) but the spear can apply it more often. BHA is applied unconditionally, the spear daze requires that a condition be present and you will need to bring a skill (and the norn skill does cost 10E without any savings) for that.

Quote:

Quotes above tell you why a spearchucker R/P would deal more damage no matter ...

They may sound cute, but actually they tell nothing. I've given both a reason and the calculation of why base damage isn't spectacular, even under IAS. HM mobs aren't comparable to the AL 60 dummies on the isle. I've also calculated how - with another secondary - a bow can outdamage the spear. You can not use a conjure with a spear, or Read the Wind - or any other method to add damage to your hits - and each of these adds enough armour ignoring damage to a bow to outperform the spear, without forcing you to sacrifice attributes anywhere. Spear damage just isn't spectacular enough.

Super Igor · Nov 02, 2008, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Yes, youve done your dodgy calculations, and what have you found? You have found that psear dps is greater than bow dps obviously because spears are best pressure weapons. Now what you do is to somehow save your ego bubble fit a conjure in there and yes, now your bow deals more damage but thats an unfair judgement dont you think? And you havent thought that you would need 10 attribute points for that, in a three attribute split it matters or you are making it very ugly. You are spending a skill slot just on having more dps too. You no longer trigger the hexes and orders and your build is no longer focused. You also havent thought about several factors that R/P has, it has a pet which pretty much doubles its dps soaks aggro and triggers daze bha doesnt, that R/P has a great ias + surviveability bha doesnt, R/P has deepowound bha doesnt, that R/P has more armor from the shield bha doesnt yet it still has its focus: shutdown.

You just cant prove against it, if you are looking to daze yet deal some good damages, get an R/P.